What was in the way of the interview was what the interview was about
Monday, February 13, 2023
Interview Tomaž Flajs
I have known you for many years, but I want to start with a basic question. What would I need to know about you, what things from your past do I need to know in order to understand you?
At what level would you like to know me? While there are certain aspects of my life that are more private and intimate, there are also parts that are more commonly known and shared with others.
I am interested in a deep human relationship. I am interested in a person as a whole with strengths and weaknesses. In your language, I would reply that I am interested in more intimate answers.
From a young age, I've always been naturally curious and passionate about many different things. It took me a while to identify my primary interest, but I eventually found that psychotherapy was the common thread that connected all aspects of my life. I was initially drawn to the field because of my own struggles with dysfunctional patterns and behavior, and my deep interest in understanding and helping others. Throughout my formative years, I considered pursuing careers in teaching or the arts, as I've always been fascinated by people and their stories. However, I eventually realized that psychotherapy allowed me to explore my interests in a deeper and more meaningful way, by helping people heal and grow. While I'm grateful to have found my calling in life, I've also struggled with the challenge of separating my professional and personal lives. In the past, I have devoted a large amount of time to all things related to psychotherapy, which has caused some confusion and difficulty in my private life. To address this, I've started seeing my own psychotherapist again, who is helping me sort out my attitude towards my profession and find a healthy balance.
I understand that you now need psychotherapy to separate your private and professional life. But when you first needed psychotherapy, what was the reason for this step?
I attended my initial psychotherapy training with the intention of improving my ability to assist others. At the time, I was teaching meditation and had noticed that not all issues can be resolved through this practice. I realized that I needed to pursue further education in the field. However, during the training, I realized that taking care of myself was equally important, which led me to recognize a pattern in my behavior. I had been prioritizing the needs of others over my own, and this realization urged me to shift my attention to recognizing and taking into account my own needs.
What life experience made you realize that you want to know more about yourself? What life experience followed you in your life and made it impossible for you to live a more freer life … and because of which you realized that psychotherapy would be the right thing?
I wouldn't be able to identify one single experience. I find that despite thinking that I have a firm grasp on my own identity, I am constantly surprised by new experiences that reveal aspects of myself I was not previously aware of. It is likely that in the future, I will continue to encounter such experiences that challenge my current perception of myself, and that I will continue to strive to know and understand myself better.
You've always wanted to know more about yourself and you've always been curious about who you are?
That's right. In different ways and through different media: art, psychotherapy, philosophy, spirituality…
Do you remember a person who was a role model for you in your life?
There were quite a few. Each of these individuals were unique, each reflecting my challenges and aspirations in different periods of time. I find it difficult to single out one. (For example, when I was around 10 years old, my role model was Winetou, a fiction character from Karl May’s novels.) Bob Resnick, one of my teachers of gestalt therapy who recently died, has been on my mind a lot lately. He was a remarkable individual, possessing both profound human warmth and insightful intellect. To possess both of these qualities in an integrated way is something that I aspire to achieve within myself.
What is more important to you, insight or warmth in interpersonal relationships?
Warmth is undoubtedly important, but if you lack lucidity, others may take advantage of your kind nature. It's possible to possess warmth while remaining naive.
Have you ever been taken advantage of in your life? What did that look like?
In Manca Košir's book entitled Human love, I described my experience when I was sexually abused as a teenager. There were other non sexual moments when I was taken advantage of, when my naivety was at stake. (After I asked him to specify it, Tomaž mentioned a few more examples of being taken advantage of here, but he later on wanted them to be omitted from the interview, as they contained reference to other people whom he didn’t want to expose in public. Also, he realized he was not ready to expose himself publicly to such an extent in relation to his private life.)
Could you provide some insights on the concept of naivety, including its potential positive and negative aspects? Also, is naivety something that should be embraced or avoided?
I believe that naivety isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think it can be a potential to learn and grow. However, naivety becomes a problem when we refuse to recognize things that have happened and we choose to remain ignorant. It's important to acknowledge that humans are born naive and it's within that naivety where innocence lies. Innocence is for me a crucial human quality, which I see as consisting of being humble and constantly open to the here and now without being burdened by prejudice, preformed concepts and personal ambition. But when someone hurts you, you become wounded and then it's harder to maintain innocence. The danger here is that you might become cynical, which can be harmful in its own way. So there are two opposite dangers related to naivety: to negate the obvious or to become cynical.
Vengeful?
Yes, also. The concept of naivety is complex and can be interpreted in different ways. In my view, naivety can be a positive quality if it contains innocence, openness, and a lack of frivolousness. It's important to avoid being burdened by past experiences, which can prevent us from seeing things more comprehensively. In this sense, I believe that naivety can be a valuable asset.
In all likelihood, in your psychotherapy practice, you encounter the thought that your client is sitting across from you, showing signs of naivety. You will find yourself in a situation where, with your answer, action, reaction or silence... you will show the client their case in such a way that you will present them with naivety. I can say from my own experience, because you were my personal therapist for many years, for which I am very grateful and I look up to you with a great deal of respect... I can say for myself that you know how to find a way where you are insightful and warm at the same time. What about when you fail? In the reaction of your client, you can see that, for example, the client reacts violently, questions your psychotherapeutic help or even decides to change the therapist. How do you react then?
To me, failure is when I fail to maintain an interest and curiosity about what happened, how it happened...and persist in it. Of course, it also depends on the client, if he, too, in this more difficult situation, is ready to be with me, to persist with me, so that in the end we come to an answer as to what and how happened. I can't always be warm and insightful, but whatever happens is information about the therapeutic process. I am mainly interested in what is happening and not in what should be happening. The main mistake I can make is not paying enough attention to the client's reactions to what I say or do. I can lose a client here. The client can react in different ways, and I tend to have no preconceived expectations because psychotherapy is about open communication.
After many years of experience in the field of psychotherapy, what is the basis for contact between a psychotherapist and a client? What is most important?
In essence, being fully present and attentive to the client, and being willing to explore any interruptions or gaps in communication or connection, can help to create a more effective and meaningful psychotherapeutic experience for both the therapist and the client. By recognizing and acknowledging the difficulties that arise between us, we have the opportunity to explore and understand what is happening, rather than simply ignoring or avoiding it. By having open and honest communication about these moments, we can turn them into moments of deep connection which can be healing per se.
Is it a paradox that an interruption can be a contact?
If I refer to Bob Resnick here: interruption to contact can become contact when both parties are willing to be open and honest about their experiencing in the moment. When we can acknowledge and talk about our feelings, thoughts and perceptions that we are experiencing at the moment of our interaction, we can create a space for understanding, compassion, and connection.
Being attentive and at the same time present are words that are also often associated with the role of parents in relation to their children. Is it either true that most of the things we can do or can't do in life are imprinted in our young years, when we are helpless and have some parents looking over us?
I believe that in some difficult situations that persist, most importantly in childhood, we survive in the best possible way. Over time, when situations change, we unconsciously persist in obsolete ways of survival. This is what is left in us.
This often prevents us from being free, present or attentive later on?
That's right. For me, therapy is an opportunity to restore my creative potential of presence in a way that I can adapt to the actual, current situation to the best of my ability, being true to myself and following myself.
Tomaž, what do you want from your life at the point where you are now and looking forward?
To be able to accept life even more as a continuous process, rather than a problem that needs to be solved or a goal to be achieved. I would like to be able to maintain presence in difficult moments from which I would otherwise prefer to run away. To put it bluntly, I would like to be “here” all the time.
Ok… um… ok.
Is what I'm telling you a little abstract?
I have a feeling that I can't get through to you with my questions.
Would you try from scratch?
I am not saying that your answers are not fine with me.
Personally, I know what I want to say, but when I think about it, it might sound very abstract.
It sounds like there are a lot of other things around your words. That's why I'm wondering if maybe I'm not asking questions that let us meet less abstractly? What I know about myself is that I hear your answers and relate them to my questions, I am in touch with you and here I am at peace. But I don't know what to ask you to meet you on a deeper level. Maybe you have a question to ask yourself?
Let me begin with some reflection. When at the beginning of our interview you expressed interest in hearing more about my intimate experiences, I felt uneasy. While I am open to sharing certain aspects of my personal life in this interview, there are certain boundaries that I am not comfortable crossing. I am only willing to open up to those with whom I have established a level of trust and connection, like in our private conversation. I believe that intimate details are not something to be shared casually and without consideration. As a result, I am carefully weighing the extent to which I am comfortable revealing myself.
How do I see it? Our relationship in this interview demonstrates how skillfully you balance revealing aspects of yourself while maintaining boundaries. Your willingness to evaluate your answers shows that you are open to intimacy, but you are also mindful of protecting your personal life. What truly captures my attention is authenticity, which in turn requires strength. Speaking honestly about the ups and downs of your life, acknowledging the weak and strong moments with respect, is a display of strength. It reflects an understanding that success and failure are both part of life's journey, and that both are temporary. Just as we ourselves are fleeting, so are our experiences. In this moment of our interview, the depth of my questions and your thoughtful responses illustrates the depth of our connection.
And still, if it wasn't for the tape recorder, I would have told you differently.
May I inquire, would you like to be more intimate with the wider community if it were feasible for you? If the answer is affirmative, could you elaborate on the reasons behind it? Conversely, if the answer is negative, would you mind sharing why not?
Maintaining deep intimacy is important to me and I reserve it for those who are closest to me. While I value honesty and openness, I also recognize the importance of setting boundaries and not letting others in closer than I feel comfortable. While I am willing to share certain intimate aspects of my life with the wider community, I believe that it's important to protect the things that are most precious to me, and also other people who are involved in what I share.
If you had a TV interview with me and I myself was skilled enough to ask you about a story of yours that touched you to the point of bringing a tear down your face? Would you allow that?
Expressing emotions and feelings is not an issue for me, but discussing concrete personal experiences, for example experiences of abuse is a different matter. I consider it a significant disclosure, one that requires sensitivity and respect. Now I feel like starting the interview over again.
Please guide me, as there are many things I don't fully understand at the moment. I can reflect on what's happening inside of me, and after that, please tell me what you want. Our interview is unique, where we can either succeed or fail to ask the desired questions, and where we can talk about you, or how you talk to me about yourself. It's all extraordinary to me and reflects the potential of our interview. The format of the interview is flexible, as it's my decision, and I approach it as an artistic project with a sense of responsibility, awareness, and acceptance of consequences. So far, every interviewee has confirmed their answers before publishing the interview. If there was something that happened during the interview that you would like to start over, please let me know and we can do so.
Several things got intertwined. Prior to the interview, we had a friendly conversation, which may have blurred the lines between our relationship as people who know each other more closely and our dynamics as interviewer and interviewee. I have transitioned to a more professional and formal tone during the interview. I also felt uneasy and somewhat intimidated at times, as if I was being pursued or scrutinized. According to this, I understand that my answers were perceived as too abstract or vague, which may have added to the confusion and misunderstanding.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Before the interview, we had a conversation where we shared more intimate things that friends usually do. However, during the interview, I felt that you assumed the role of a public figure and I remained on a friendly level. I apologize for any confusion or discomfort that this may have caused.
Yes of course. My public figure is another role. Thank you for your recognition of the situation.
I am also going through my own process right now, but before we proceed, I think it would be best if we start from the beginning. During our conversation, I realized that the interview took unexpected dimensions that were both unique and highly appreciated. I value these dimensions, as they flow from our unique relationship. I understand that you felt your answers were too abstract, and I appreciate your desire to listen to my needs of having a more intimate interview. In turn, I want to listen to your needs and desires. What do you think we should do?
(At this point we talked about what to do. Tomaž expressed uneasiness about having revealed some facts from his personal life related to his experiences of being abused. He felt uncomfortable as they included other people whom he didn’t want to expose and he also realized that he revealed more about himself that he felt ready to expose publicly. We agreed to omit those passages. After that we proceeded to focus on what was happening between us.)
For me, both things were happening simultaneously: on one hand, I wanted to provide you with my insights and meaningful answers that would enrich your work. I wanted to make sure that the answers were authentic and reflective of me as an individual. On the other hand, I also had a desire to maintain control over the information I shared and to protect my boundaries. Finding the right balance between these two objectives was important to me.
Are these boundaries very important to you?
Yes, they are very important to me.
Because you built them in your life so that you can feel safe inside them.
Yes. As I have told you with other words at the beginning of this interview, it was a very important turn in my life to start paying attention to the boundaries between my needs and the needs of the other, between allowing myself to be open and protecting myself... What I also want to underline is that these boundaries are not static, they are moving all the time, according to the changing situation. I think that this is happening also in this interview, between you and me. At this very moment, for example, I feel again more willing to open, feeling less need to protect myself.
I deeply respect your boundaries and understand the importance of maintaining them. Although I am unsure of how to proceed at this moment, I do know that throughout the years of seeking your guidance and support, I have valued the lessons you've imparted on me. Through your way of being and approach, you've shown me that even in moments of confusion and uncertainty, I can still be myself and feel okay. It's ironic that now, as the interviewer, I'm feeling lost and unsure of how to proceed. But I trust that we can work together to find a way forward.
You said it very well. I appreciate your words, thank you. Your respect means a lot to me. Listening to my feelings is crucial. I am aware of it only now: when I couldn’t express myself clearly at some moments, there was something in me that was telling me that I went too far in my answers. But I didn’t acknowledge it and the result was some kind of blockage.
Today's interview has been a valuable and unique experience for me. It's taught me again that I can still feel okay with myself, even when things are not okay.
I find that staying with what is, rather than trying to push it away or avoid it, is a powerful practice. Once more I realized that I need to listen to myself and stay true to myself.
Which is what is most important.
Yes. Here I would also like to add the importance of listening to the other and respecting his uniqueness.
Afterword:
Dear Gregor,
I feel grateful for this interview. It’s fascinating to me how we ‘got into trouble’ and resolved it by staying with our immediate experience and communicating it. This is exactly what I talked about as the reponse to your questions about reestablishing contact with a client after a break in communication. I think you did a very good job here in your role of the interviewer.
For me, the resolution started when I sincerely and honestly expressed my feelings which I ‘jumped over’ at the beginning of the interview. Not listening to myself was a good exemple of ‘prioritizing the needs of others over my own’ which I described as my old pattern: I focused more on what I imagined to be your expectations about the interview. And for you, as I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), the turning point was when you detached from the idea of ‘meeting me at a deeper level’ according to your concept and just listened to me attentively instead. This is my understanding of WHAT happened.
As to HOW it happened that we found ourselves in such place, I think that it was due to the fact that we had a friendly conversation about our lives before the interview and we then, without making a break, proceeded with the interview. We went from intimacy to the public conversation right away. And prior to this we stepped out of our roles of therapist and client. If I express it in the langauge of the theory of gestalt therapy: we neglected the post-contact phase of the friendly conversation and jumped over the fore-contact phase of the interview. Or to put it more simply: we were too quick.
Being too quick used to be my pattern in the past. And when I repeated it, all the rest - my old pattern of not paying enough attention to myself and focusing on my projection of the other instead – followed from my side. This is exactly what I was refering to when you asked me why I first needed therapy. So instead of a more ‘concrete’ answer on the level of ‘historical events’, what you got from me was an enactment of my ‘archaic pattern’ in the co-created situation of our interview.
Exposing all this – my being too quick and my focusing on your needs while neglecting mine – is in fact being intimate “on the spot”. And my becoming aware of it has been a therapeutic experience for me.
Thank you, Gregor. My sense is that we did meet me at a deeper level.
With warmth and affection,
Tomaž
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